FEATURE:
Saluting the Queens
spotlight great female artists in music, I am also running a feature where I highlight those women in the industry who are inspiring and creating change. Those who are icons and doing phenomenal work. I will look at those running labels, broadcasters, D.J.s, engineers and pioneers. First, and one of a few producers I am keen to include, is someone I have included before. Catherine Marks produced (with the group) boygenius’ the record. One of my favourite albums of the year, you only need to look at her official website to see what a résumé she has! A phenomenal producer and engineer, Marks recently featured in an edition of Sound on Sound. Fronting and leading ‘The Change Makers’, as a skilled and hugely respected mixer, engineer and producer – and she is the Executive Director of the Music Producers Guild -, Marks wanted to create visibility for those killing it in the industry. To show there is a wide and diverse pool out there. Whilst the issue did not mention women and non-binary professionals, it was male-free. Showcasing the incredible women and non-binary people in studios and in the industry who are there for all the decision makers to see. I am going to slightly detour before getting to some interviews with Catherine Marks. I think that Marks is one of the best and most important producers in the world. Billboard recently ran an article that showed how there is dismal representation across all genres when it comes to women and non-binary producers/engineers:
“The authors of a new report that paints a dismal portrait of gender diversity in recording studios are calling on major labels to step up their efforts to hire more women producers and engineers.
Published by Fix the Mix — an initiative launched in 2022 by nonprofit We Are Moving the Needle and official music credits database Jaxsta — the first annual report, created in conjunction with Middle Tennessee State University and Howard University and released Tuesday (April 11), found that women and non-binary people are drastically underrepresented in audio producing and engineering roles in recording studios.
PHOTO CREDIT: Pixabay
Analyzing 1,128 songs from 2022, the report (Lost In The Mix: An Analysis of Credited Technical Professionals in the Music Industry Highlighting Women and Non-Binary Producers and Engineers Across DSP Playlists, Genres, Awards, and Record Certifications) found that only 16 of the 240 credited producers and engineers (6.7%) on the top 10 most-streamed tracks of 2022 across five major digital service providers (Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube and TikTok) were women and non-binary people.
The levels of representation varied across genres. Among the top 50 songs across 14 genres examined in the report, metal had the lowest percentage of women and non-binary people credited in key technical roles at 0.0%, with rap and Christian & gospel coming in at 0.7% and 0.8%, respectively. On the other end of the spectrum, electronic stands out for its relatively high representation of women and non-binary people in producer roles, accounting for 17.6% of all producer credits on the top 50 songs of 2022, while folk & Americana was close behind at 16.4%.
“While this research notes the genres that have the best and worst gender representations, it is important to note that every genre needs improvement in representation of women and non-binary people,” said report co-author Beverly Keel, dean of Middle Tennessee State University’s College of Media and Entertainment, co-founder of Change the Conversation and co-founder of Nashville Music Equality. “It is difficult to fathom that representation remains so pitifully low in 2023. In any other industry, these low percentages of the genres that have the best gender representation would be an embarrassment, so I hope these ‘high achievers’ are not resting on their laurels.”
PHOTO CREDIT: Hendrik B/Pexels
Analyzing data from streaming services that report assistant credits, the report also found that women and non-binary people are better represented in assistant roles, which have 12.6% percentage points more women and non-binary people on average than key technical roles. The report suggests that, “while this higher concentration of women and non-binary people in assistant roles may indicate a growing pipeline of these contributors rising into key levels, it could be indicative of a glass ceiling preventing this demographic from an upward trajectory.”
This year’s Grammy Award nominees didn’t fare well in terms of representation either. Of all winning albums in the 28 “best in genre” categories in 2023, 17 credited zero women or non-binary people in the key technical roles of producer and engineer. A total of eight projects listed women and non-binary people as producers (representing 11.5% of all producers) and three projects listed women and non-binary people as engineers (representing 3.9% of all engineers). The total number of women and non-binary people credited in technical roles was 19 out of 249, or just 7.6%. Across the eight Grammy Award categories that honored people in technical roles, only one woman was recognized versus 30 men.
To offer a wider look at the music industry, the report also analyzed the RIAA diamond-certified list (songs that have achieved 10-times-platinum status) and the Spotify “Billions Club” (songs that have received 1 billion streams on the streaming platform). Of the top 50 songs on the RIAA diamond-certified list, there are a total of 248 key technical roles credited. Of those, 224 (98.4%) are filled by men while just 4 (1.6%) are filled by women or non-binary people. Of the four women and non-binary individuals credited, three are producers (two of which were the main artist on the track), while one is an engineer. Among the top 50 songs included on Spotify’s Billions Club, women and non-binary people make up only 2% of key technical roles”.
PHOTO CREDIT: Wallace Chuck/Pexels
Back in October 2021, Professional Sound suggested ways that real change could be affected. There are amazing women and non-binary people in studios. There is still this culture that excludes them. Many professional studios still male-dominated. What are some of the reasons why there is this massive gender imbalance? The article posited some theories and explanations:
“The next obstacle women face within this industry, which likely deters many from entering or staying, is the continual presence of sexism. Of course, environmental and social obstacles are not uncommon in any workforce, but when someone's qualifications and abilities are dismissed daily due to their identity as a woman, there’s clearly an issue. Imagine you're doing your job as a producer when someone walks in and rudely points you out, asking if you're the girlfriend or wife of the studio owner. It’s not only incredibly upsetting, but also unbelievably common, even today. It, of course, doesn’t end there. Several women have also shared stories of being considered studio secretaries and cleaning ladies. Pangsaeng sums up the experience, explaining when a man walks into a recording studio everyone looks to him, thinking of course he’s the producer or engineer.
“If I'm there, the first thing people look for is a man in a room. They’ll just sit there and wait for the engineer, while I’m right there asking if they’d like to get started,” says Pangsaeng. “So, when I wanted to be taken seriously, even though I wasn't aware of it at the time, I began to bury my gender and my sexuality. I think especially as a woman, you instinctively just stack the odds in your favour.”
Sadly, the display and effects of sexism in the industry don’t stop there. Many women comment on how the hostile environment for women breeds a sort of disdain between women in the studio. “We're really conditioned to accept that there's not a ton of space for more than one woman in the room,” explains Pangsaeng. “Looking back, I definitely made that normal and acceptable in my mind, sometimes even taking pride in being the only woman in the room. That's problematic. However, normalizing women's presence in the studio will change that perspective.”
Winston furthers this point, adding, “There is damage this environment has created and I feel sad, because I know they have weathered an enormous amount of sexism, so I remind younger folks, they're doing it to survive as they have more to lose.”
Another unavoidable issue can be found in the social qualities of a very male-dominated field. In Rogers’ past observations of women starting in the business, she comments on the absence of the pervasive competitive spirit commonly seen in men. “When I teach at the Berklee College of Music, some young female record-makers, engineers, mixers, producers, hit the wall hard trying to interact with men in a competitive environment. We need to model that more for young women – how to continue in the face of that competitive drive. Of course, sometimes due to a lack of self-confidence they’ll feel reluctant to express their opinions and keep up. But other times they're perfectly competent and it's just intolerance from a guy”.
I think Catherine Marks is someone who is genuinely affecting change and progress. From her continued amazing work through to the recent Sound on Sound issue that saluted these change-making women and non-binary icons, Marks is an example of the immense talent out there. Studios do need to be more inclusive and diverse. If recent findings show that only 5% of music producers are women, I do feel that we will see that figure rise (improve). Even so, toxicity and a lack of support is holding back real and quick parity. You can read more about Marks’s background here. Marks won for Best Producer in the prestigious MPG Awards in 2018. I am returning to Marks’s feet, as she continues to grow in stature and importance. Before coming up to date, I actually want to go back to an interview from 2014. Marks, then, was a rising and promising producer. In almost a decade since, she has established herself as an industry leader. Tape Op spoke with someone who was an Australian architecture student that bumped into the legendary producer/engineer Flood while studying in Ireland. She returned home to start playing in bands, before eventually moving to London and become an in-demand engineer and producer. It is an incredible story:
“You'd studied classical piano when you were younger?
Yeah, from like four to 15. I'm not really that good anymore, but I think it helps to be able to communicate notes and chords, at the very least.
I heard that you studied architecture in Melbourne.
When I did architecture at Melbourne uni, I had to do a compulsory year at a firm before I went on to finish my degree. For some reason, I thought it would be a good idea to do it in Ireland, because my mum's Irish. Dublin was full of amazing musicians, at the time. I started going to see bands, which I'd never done before. I met Flood maybe halfway through the year of my time there. It was at a Nick Cave concert, and we got along really well. Someone had mentioned that he was a music producer. I don't think I understood what that was, at that point. I think at my going-away dinner I asked him if he'd produce me, and he said no. I think he was working on a U2 record at the time. He said, "I won't; but if you are really serious about working in music, I'll help you. Go back, finish your degree, and work out if you want to do what I do. It's a big sacrifice."
It's overwhelming. So you went back to Melbourne to finish your degree?
Yeah, I joined a couple of bands playing keyboards. The first band I was in was called The Wreck. I would say it was kind of ethereal indie-pop. Then The Wreck broke up, and I joined this band called The Harlocks.
Was there kind of an open invitation to come to London and work with Flood?
No. In his mind he thinks I pestered him, but in my mind I think that he called me regularly to make sure I was still coming. Either way, we had stayed in contact over those four years. When I eventually moved to London, I became the assistant to the assistant engineer, Andy Savours. But I didn't know what it was to work in a studio. I'd never personally recorded anything. I was not technically savvy, at all. But I was so excited about making music, and being involved in making music. Even the things that I found difficult I was determined to figure out. There's a real dynamic in the studio, which I definitely know now and it's incredibly crucial, but I really didn't understand it then. I'd been working at an architecture firm, and I had people who were working underneath me.
How did you approach learning some of the technical side?
I asked a lot of questions; probably annoyingly. I still constantly apologize to Flood now for the way I was. But Flood and Andy also had this thing they called the "war of attrition." I'd ask a question when I thought it was the appropriate time, but it obviously wasn't. They'd reveal a little bit of information, which of course made no sense to me, at all, because it had no context. I'd ask, "What does compression do?" They'd go, "Well, it does this... but this is all we're going to tell you, for now." I still joke to Alan Moulder that I think I've finally worked out the difference between attack and release. He knows that I know things, but we don't have those kind of discussions. He laughs at me because I don't profess to be overly technical, but I do actually know all this stuff. The technological side of things is, like, 25 percent of it.
How did you get up to speed though?
After three months of shadowing Andy, Flood gave me the keys to this project studio up in Kilburn, which he called The Boys Bedroom. It was a mess. All his mates had been using it. I started sorting things out and repatching. I slowly started teaching myself all the equipment. He just kept throwing me in the deep end. "There's a session here, and the band wants to record 25 tracks, in six days." Things would break down; I'd just stay calm and work it out.
I agree that the technical is a small percentage of what you have to do to get a record done.
I say all this stuff, but recently I engineered the Foals' Holy Fire record for Flood and Alan. I was really nervous about doing that, because you're working with two of the greatest producers and engineers in the world. It was an amazing opportunity, because they rarely work together, and Foals is an incredibly talented band. It was not only keeping the ship running, but also managing the technical side of things as well.
PHOTO CREDIT: Headliner
How much do you end up editing and tuning material?
I don't think I'm particularly fond of comping drums or Auto-Tune. I'm very reluctant. I don't think it's out of laziness, but it's much easier to get them to play again. It saves time. All that stuff is really time consuming. But I know that everyone has a different process. I was talking about it with a band yesterday who was asking if I was going to comp the drums. I said that I'd like to not have to do that, unless they want it to be a creative thing where they'd like things to sound cut-up, or to sound like a drum machine. They said that they worked with people before who just did one drum take and then spent hours cutting it up. I can understand that. It's a process that some people might have to go through. When I'm mixing, the last thing that I do is draw out the esses on the vocals; whether it really needs it or not. It's these things that people do to make them feel like they're doing their job.
You've gone back to Australia and produced and engineered since moving away. How did that come about?
I think that people had heard of me; they heard about this "young Aussie chick" who'd gone to London. I'd gone back to Australia and asked my manager, Karen [Ciccone], to organize some meetings. Because I've worked with Flood and Alan, that opened a lot of doors. I would love to eventually make more records in Australia, and to be close to mum and dad. Through those meetings, I found people who had particular things that I could do. I worked on a Buchanan album. I worked with Paul Kelly, who's an Aussie hero — an incredible musician and songwriter.
What do you see in the future?
I'm working so much at the moment that time is just getting compressed, more and more, into ridiculous schedules. I feel like I'm now coming back to working around the clock. I have a couple of weeks off coming up, which I'm really excited about. I'm just going to sleep. But I don't know what's next. Hopefully I can maintain the interest there is, with the people who want to work with me. Some of the productions I've been doing over the past few years are coming out now, which is exciting. I don't get offended if I don't get chosen for a job though. I think it's so much about personalities, and the dynamic that you have with the band. You're going to be spending loads of time with them, so they need to respect and trust you”.
Apologies if I repeat myself here at all regarding any details and biography. I think that the 2021 interview with Kerrang! provides some great insight into how Marks’s career has bloomed. She gives useful advice to women looking to get into production. Published at a time when the pandemic was restricting movement and work for many in the music industry, Marks was able to keep going. She is definitely one of the most determined, defiant and influential producers and engineers in music:
“In the last decade Catherine has become one of the most in-demand producers, mixers and engineers in the recording industry. In 2018, she won the prestigious Music Producer Guild award for Producer Of The Year, becoming the first woman to do so. The following year she triumphed at the GRAMMYs for her work as a mixer when St. Vincent’s Masseduction won Best Rock Song.
Catherine’s love affair with music stems back to her school days, and her recent successes are the result of a 20-year journey, which began with a chance meeting in 2001 with producer Flood at a Nick Cave show in Dublin. An introduction to Flood’s collaborator Alan Moulder followed later. The pair – who’d helped define modern production aesthetics from the ’80s onwards through their work, both individually and collectively, with the likes of U2, Depeche Mode, Nine Inch Nails, Smashing Pumpkins, PJ Harvey and Thirty Second To Mars – became Catherine’s mentors.
Learning her craft as an assistant engineer, Catherine worked alongside Flood on PJ Harvey’s White Chalk in 2007 and its 2011 successor Let England Shake. A slew of further engineering projects followed involving Foals and The Killers, a number of them initially at Flood and Alan’s Assault And Battery Studio in Willesden, North West London, where she was instrumental in rebuilding Studio 2.
Since then, the Melbourne-born producer has worked at a relentless rate. Her key charges include Wolf Alice and The Big Moon alongside the likes of Frank Carter & The Rattlesnakes, The Amazons and Frank Turner – Catherine producing the latter’s 2019 concept album, No Man’s Land, which celebrated the lives of a number of women whose work was overlooked by history due to their gender. Last year Catherine produced Alanis Morissette’s first album in eight years, Some Pretty Forks In The Road, and completed work on the Manchester Orchestra’s forthcoming album, The Million Masks Of God.
As the fourth subject of our We Run The Scene series of short films – an extension of our celebration of International Women’s Day – Catherine is a gregarious and often self-deprecating individual. While she may be slow to boast about her own achievements, she comes armed with sage advice for those looking to follow in her footsteps. We begin our conversation by discussing her unlikely route into the production world…
You didn’t start out wanting to be a producer, did you?
“No, I started as an architect. Coming out of school there was no clear path to working in music and I really loved art, maths and science, so architecture seemed like a natural fit. I was into music and I’d played a lot at school, so in the back of my mind I wanted to be involved in music, but I had stage fright so it couldn’t be as a performer.
“Through my architecture degree I moved to Ireland and I worked in a firm as an intern. In my year there, I met so many wonderful musicians, producers and engineers – the kind of people I hadn’t been exposed to in Australia. I also went to see a lot of live music, which I hadn’t done living in Melbourne.
IN THIS PHOTO: St. Vincent/PHOTO CREDIT: Chad Wadsworth
You’ve worked with some genuinely pioneering and strong women, too: PJ Harvey, St. Vincent, Alanis Morissette and Ellie Rowsell from Wolf Alice. What unique qualities do they bring to what they do?
“That’s a good question. I first worked with Ellie from Wolf Alice on an early EP [Creature Songs in 2014]. We were hyper-aware of the fact that women in music – or the lack of women in music – had become an issue in the press and we were getting asked a lot of questions about that. It was not something we had thought about. We were both very driven, determined and at the start of our careers. The fact that we were women was not going to stop us and we were not aware that we were some kind of rarity. As we thought about it more and more, we discussed it, and we realised that we did have to do a bit more to prove ourselves, but we both agreed that being women was not going to be something that was going to get in our way.
“When I worked with PJ Harvey, that was different. When I first worked with PJ Harvey, I was more in awe of her at the end of the project than I was at the start. I had known her work before I worked with her and I was a big fan. Watching her in the studio and seeing how clear she is with her ideas, how free she is with her expression, I found that so inspiring. Her strength and her vulnerability were two things I really took away from my experience of working with her. It’s something that I’ve carried with me. Having strength and vulnerability is a real asset in the studio."
That’s maybe because you’re trying to balance time pressure with the creative process, and you’re trying to capture something unique.
“Yes. To me, the most exciting thing about making a record is feeling that ‘thing’ that's in the room and trying to capture it. If I’m successful in capturing that then I feel as if I have made a great record, whether anyone likes it or not. If that feeling is coming through the speakers or you can capture the fact that the air in the room has heated up, or there’s that little air of tension, or complete emotional collapse – if you can capture those things in the room, that’s what matters and makes the difference.
“It’s about creating an atmosphere and capturing it. With The Big Moon record, there is a sense of joy about [it] because we made it quickly and we made the studio feel as if we were on holiday. We had [inflatable] flamingos and palm trees, and we wore Hawaiian shirts and lays to make it feel like we were on holiday. We laughed heartily during the making of that record.”
IN THIS PHOTO: Catherine Marks giving her speech at the 2017 #MPGAwards
What advice would you give a young woman wanting to become a producer?
“There’s still no obvious path for any job in this industry. A lot of things are built around who you know and building your reputation. Having said that, technology is changing and it is very easy now to get hold of technology where you can start making music and producing your own music. It’s like anything creative: there’s always going to be difficult moments, but if it’s something you really want to do then it’s also really rewarding so you should just do it. No matter what barriers are in the way, you should just climb over them. That’s kinda what I did but I never saw them as barriers… it was more of a little obstacle course (laughs). Little mini challenges that I needed to overcome to get to the finish line. And I still experience that. That’s what’s so great about this career: there is no end point. Every day is a constant learning experience. If it’s something you really want to do, you should just do it.”
So what needs to change in order for more women to enter in the world of making records?
“I feel there are certain elements of the industry that need to change, but I think that we’re experiencing and living through the change right now. One of the biggest things I’ve noticed – and I think is incredibly encouraging – is how women are supporting other women in the industry. When I started there was no-one I could look up to or talk to who was a woman in the world of production. There is a wonderful community of female mixers, producers and engineers who I’ve got to know recently, and I feel like we’re supporting the next generation that’s coming through, and to me that’s very exciting. I’m sure there’s a lot more that needs to change and I understand that the conversation needs to continue. But to me that is very positive”.
I am going to end with an interview from this year. Speaking to Music Business Worldwide, Catherine Marks spoke about what she wish she’d known. Those lessons that she has gained from her many years of experience:
“But, actually, it’s about making your own opportunities, working hard and having the right attitude. Had I been more conscious of that, I probably would have stuck to my guns a bit more. When people were telling me, ‘This is the way things are’, I should have said, ‘No, I’m going to explore all of these opportunities that I have’. There was an element of waiting for the big thing to come along to help create my success.
When I was assisting, there would be long chunks where I wasn’t in session. I’d do writing sessions instead and was offered a publishing deal as a songwriter. Someone said, ‘No, you’re Flood’s assistant, that’s not your discipline, you can’t explore that avenue’. I took heed of that and thought, perhaps they’re right, perhaps I do need to focus on learning the craft of engineering and being a good assistant before accepting those kinds of opportunities.
I was 25 at that point and so brand new to the industry. I was learning how it worked and didn’t have the confidence to say, ‘Actually, this is something I would like to do’.
I often look back on that and wonder if I missed an opportunity. It was at the time when there was a transition in the way the industry was working; budgets were getting smaller and the defined roles of a producer, engineer and writer were being blurred. Often, I would be working with people who wore all those hats and I felt that was something I needed to learn, not just the specific role of my mentor, who was a producer/engineer.
At that time, I didn’t want to step on anyone’s toes or seem overconfident. I would often play a little bit of the bumbling idiot in order to not come across as being a particular way. I never behaved like that with the men I worked with and I think that had a lot to do with the culture of women in the industry.
There were a lot of female producer managers or songwriters and there was a culture back then, around 2005, of women not necessarily supporting other women and having to fight for their positions. I regressed and didn’t assert myself in the way I would now, to make myself seem unthreatening. That culture has changed drastically — there is a lot more generosity, solidarity and support amongst other women in the industry.
Taking control of my career came with experience and confidence. Ultimately, this is my business and I have to stand by my decisions. It’s not about someone telling me what I should do, it’s about taking advice and making an educated decision on what I think is best for me.
The final thing I wish I’d known is to trust your instincts. Early on, if something didn’t feel right, I would carry on in that situation because I felt like I had an obligation to someone. Now, if a project doesn’t feel right, we’ve created a situation where we’re able to test the waters. Even if it has the potential to be the most successful thing ever, I just say, ‘I don’t think I’m right for that’. That’s totally okay — I don’t have to say yes to everything.
I’d rather enjoy my experience every day, which is not to say that there aren’t some shitty days, of course. But I’m more conscious of what my gut is telling me now and I think that comes from confidence and experience”.
A queen of the music scene; a change maker and icon, I wanted to start this series with Catherine Marks. With one of the most diverse and impressive C.V.s in music production and engineering, she is someone inspiring a new generation of women coming through. I did start with the stats. They are still quite grim regarding equality and opportunities for women. Things will change. I think people like Catherine Marks are helping bring about progress. When it comes to pioneering and go-to producers, Marks is…
ONE of the world’s very best.
