FEATURE:
Modern-Day Queens
IN THIS PHOTO: Catherine Marks receives her Music Creative Award at Women In Music Awards from Wolf Alice's Ellie Rowsell
this series for amazing women in music. Artists. However, I have so much love and respect for Catherine Marks. I have written about her before. One of the best and most successful producers in the world, I have spoken about her in the sense of there not being many women in professional studios. Whilst many female artists self-produce, there are still not that many in studios. The industry does not to address this and redress this. Catherine Marks no doubt has inspired so many aspiring women to go into production (and engineering). To recognise her brilliance, I am going to get to some fairly recent interviews with her. I am going to head to a couple of older interview first. In terms of her discography, Marks’ work includes production on boygenius' the record, The Mysterines' Reeling, Alanis Morissette's Such Pretty Forks in the Road (co-produced), and The Wombats' Beautiful People Will Ruin Your Life (co-produced). Other significant works include producing for The Amazons, Frank Turner, and Manchester Orchestra. I want to start out with an interview from 2023 (there are a few on YouTube like this that I do not have space to include, but I would advise people to check out) that was published by The Hollywood Reporter. Nominated for GRAMMYs for her work as producer on boygenius’s the record, it did win, among other things, Best Alternative Music Album. Though it was not a standalone producer nod, it did break boundaries in the fact that not many albums with a woman as a producer win GRAMMY awards. Marks was helping to break down the boys’ club and pave the way for other women:
“Catherine Marks had just graduated with her master’s degree in architecture, but before launching that career she wanted to take a stab at another passion: music. So the Australian took off for six months, moved to London and got a job at a recording studio.
“I started making tea there,” she says with a light laugh. Fast-forward nearly 20 years, and it’s clear Marks made the right decision. She trained and worked alongside Grammy-winning creatives Flood and Alan Moulder, and went on to work with Alanis Morissette, St. Vincent, The Killers, Wolf Alice, The Wombats, Foals and more.
This year she’s been nominated for three Grammys, thanks to her work on the record, the highly regarded debut album by boygenius (the ironically named indie supergroup consisting of Julien Baker, Phoebe Bridgers and Lucy Dacus). Marks, who produced and engineered the record, is up for record of the year for “Not Strong Enough” and best engineered album (non-classical), and could make Grammy history Feb. 4 with her nom for album of the year.
“I didn’t even know that was going to happen,” Marks says of her triple nom. “I was sort of like, ‘I’d love to go, but would I even be invited?’ I would celebrate for ‘the boys,’ ” as she refers to the band, “but little old me getting to go to the Grammys, I don’t know.”
The few female producers who have won album of the year have been artists who self-produced their own projects, including Lauryn Hill, Taylor Swift and Arcade Fire’s Régine Chassagne and Sarah Neufeld. Singer Autumn Rowe won the award for co-producing two tracks on Jon Batiste’s We Are and Imogen Heap won for co-producing a song on Swift’s 1989 — and those were in years when the Grammys awarded all producers on an album. Now, nominees have to produce at least 20 percent of an album to be nominated or win. Marks, in contrast, produced all 12 tracks on the record alongside boygenius.
A recent USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative study reported that only 3.4 percent of producers were women in 2022. No woman has ever won the Grammys’ coveted non-classical producer of the year award in the show’s 65-year-history.
When she’s asked about the lack of female producers in music, Marks has some theories. “When I started, I was the only one. So I wonder if it was a case of ‘You can’t be what you can’t see,’ ” she says. Marks notes that, culturally, the studio can be a tough place for women. “I definitely never saw it or experienced or perceived it that way, but I think it can be a pretty brutal situation.”
More than three-quarters of women in music say they have been treated differently because of their gender, according to the Women in the Mix study published by The Recording Academy, Arizona State University and the Berklee Institute for Creative Entrepreneurship last year. The study also reported that women in the industry are overworked and underpaid.
Marks is excited about changing the tune at the upcoming Grammys, which is dominated by female nominees in the top three categories, among them Swift, SZA, Billie Eilish, Miley Cyrus, Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Janelle Monáe, Dua Lipa and Victoria Monét. And though Marks is the only non-artist female producer up for album of the year, several female engineers are also up for the prize, including Sarah Tudzin (boygenius), Jayda Love (Monáe), Yáng Tan (Monáe) and Laura Sisk, who engineered albums by Swift, Del Rey and Batiste, and is a triple nominee in the big category.
“It’s changing a lot,” Marks says of the industry. “I think you will see that shift because the women who are starting, or have started in the last five to 10 years, their names will start coming up.”
More will follow in their wake, Marks predicts. “Other young engineers and producers will go, ‘Oh my God, I could do that, too,’ because there’s more visibility”.
Not that Catherine Marks is short of accolades. And all rightly deserved! Her honours include the Music Producers Guild (MPG) Awards for Breakthrough Producer of the Year in 2016 and Producer of the Year in 2018 and 2024. She also received the Music Business Worldwide (MBW) A&R Award for Producer of the Year in 2023 and the Women In Music Award for Music Creative in 2024. Catherine Marks lives in London, though she was born in Melbourne, Australia. She moved to London in 2005 to work as an assistant engineer. Before moving to some 2024 interviews and one from this year, I want to include this interview (I am not sure when it was published as there is no date on it):
“So what has kept you at this career? Your family's on the other side of the world, you come to London and you're sitting in sessions for 12 hours a day.
I think part of it is just determination. I think that a lot of people thought that I wouldn't last very long, that I was doing the wrong thing, or that it wasn't what I wanted to do. But it turned out that it was. Even though I found it difficult initially, just being an invisible nobody, I slowly started to realize how crucial that aspect was, and how you were suddenly part of a team. I wanted to be part of making music, and it didn't matter how.
What do you think you bring to a session?
I'm very organized. I think it's all about seeing the big picture. Everyone's got this common goal. It's thinking about what I can do to help everyone realize what they want to achieve. I still feel like it's not about me and my vision. I think, in that way, I'm quite reactive. It's about the energies and the excitement; all the emotion, or whatever that goes on on that particular day, with those particular people. Creatively, that's definitely the way I work. What excites me at that time? Obviously I've got a plan of what we need to achieve; but musically, and emotionally, it's very experimental. It's the happy accidents that color and shape the fundamentals of a song. That's definitely what excites me. I remember asking Flood a stupid question like, "What did you do back then [on tape] if someone played out of time, or sung out of tune?" He'd say, "Turn them up!" I know he was being flippant, or annoyed by my question, but I took that to heart. You either make the most of it, or find a way that you can work around it.
What do you see in the future?
I'm working so much at the moment that time is just getting compressed, more and more, into ridiculous schedules. I feel like I'm now coming back to working around the clock. I have a couple of weeks off coming up, which I'm really excited about. I'm just going to sleep. But I don't know what's next. Hopefully I can maintain the interest there is, with the people who want to work with me. Some of the productions I've been doing over the past few years are coming out now, which is exciting. I don't get offended if I don't get chosen for a job though. I think it's so much about personalities, and the dynamic that you have with the band. You're going to be spending loads of time with them, so they need to respect and trust you”.
Earlier this year, Catherine Marks shared on her Instagram account that she had been diagnosed with cancer. Having lived with pain for years, the news was both a relief and a huge shock. I am not sure whether she has been given the all clear or is still living with cancer. However, it was a very power and personal post that led to a wave of love and support. I have see recent posts where she does appear to be back in the studio and working. I hope that she is almost back to full health, or at least is in a position where she can work without that many obstructions or pain. I am going to bring in parts of an interview from November 2024 from Music Week. One of the winners of that year’s Women In Music Awards, Catherine Marks discussed how women as producers have their achievements politicised rather than celebrated. She was asked if there are enough resources to support women and encourage them into production and studios:
“Catherine Marks is a force of nature, one of the music industry’s most highly-regarded producers, and this year’s winner of the Music Week Women In Music Awards Music Creative honour.
With a career that has so far spanned over 20 years, Marks has been renowned for her work in the studio as a producer and mixer, as well as a campaigner, advocating for better recognition of female producers.
"There are a lot more of us than people seem to think!" she stated, in an interview with Music Week earlier this year.
When you spoke to Music Week earlier this year, you said that you were frustrated with how women’s achievements are often politicised rather than celebrated. What can the business be doing more of to shift the focus onto inspiring women instead of tokenising those in more senior roles?
“That’s the issue, I feel like the women who already exist in the industry and have been working hard for a long time, they haven't been celebrated enough, there was always a lack of that. If you don’t educate everyone in the industry that there are incredible women working in it, then young people don’t know about them, and you can’t be what you can’t see. I felt that, while it is so important to carry on the conversation about why there has been a barrier for women who want to enter into this side of the industry, acknowledging those who have had success in their career – of which there are so many globally – is needed. When I first started, there were women who had been there before me, but there weren’t any I knew of. As time went on, there were more entering the industry, but it takes time to build a profile, so of course people were still not aware of them. Now, however, there are women who do have a profile and are making significant gains, so if we celebrate them – whilst talking about the work that can be done to bring in the younger generations – that will help. It’s so important that the decision makers, the managers and the record labels are aware of those producers, songwriters, creatives who are available. But the culture is definitely shifting, which is great.”
Do you think there are enough resources in place to support young female producers coming up nowadays?
“I hope so, I think we’re living through a shift. But again, it’s about showing the representation and, ultimately, in order to have a career you need to have access to particular projects. Especially for myself, I’m not an artist, record labels, managers and artists come to me to make records, and that’s because they’re aware of me, so it’s all about making people aware of all the others who are around. It’s also about how you access that situation. It’s an ongoing thing, but having award shows like this are really important because it’s a celebration of how far we’ve come and what we’ve achieved, and also just a lovely experience to be in a room of all these incredible women.”
You’ve previously spoken about how, when you were coming up in the industry, you didn’t want to step on people’s toes or seem overconfident. How did you establish a more confident voice in your work?
“I wonder if it was a combination of a lot of things – one being that I was very inexperienced in the industry and, coming from an architecture background to making tea in studios, I thought that I had to be invisible to be able to learn. Then, as my experience grew, as did the industry, there was this natural shift where I started to feel really confident in what I was doing and what I could deliver. I remember someone telling me to always be myself, and for a long time I felt like I could only show a little part of myself, but because I live in the studio, it’s a hard thing to put on an act, and in the end I did just have to be me! I work with people now who I love and are inspiring, which allows me a real sense of personal freedom.”
What is the key piece of advice you would give to younger creatives entering the industry now? Is there anything you wish you’d known when you started out?
“This industry, as I imagine a lot of industries are, is a trust-based one in that even if your role is just making tea, it’s so important that you get that right and put as much passion into it as you would if you were a producer. It’s also such a unique environment, often you’re working long hours in a small room with a core team. Thankfully, there is a lot more mental and physical health support and awareness of peoples’ lifestyles now, but even so, your role is always significant and you often can't 'call in sick'. This business is small and it is about building a reputation. That's something I didn’t know that when I started out, I was just like, ‘Goddamnit, I’m making tea!’ or ‘I’m just hoovering!’ But those things are important, and people pay attention”.
I want to skip back a little further to July 2024. Another interview with Music Week, Catherine Marks talked about conquering her fears, representation and she also paid tribute to Steve Albini (who sadly died last May). I think the last time that I spotlighted Catherine Marks was in 2023. I am long overdue a return to her brilliant career and work. One of the world’s greatest producers:
“Marks, who tasted her first Grammy success earlier this year with Boygenius' debut album The Record (77,664 sales, OCC), reflected on how the wider industry could improve its treatment of producers.
“I think it’s about respecting the process," she said. "Traditionally, the producer’s role was there to help carry the burden - of the pressure, the finances, the budget, schedule - as well as facilitate for the artist to achieve whatever it is that they wanted to achieve.
"The roles outside the studio and the roles inside the studio are constantly evolving, so it’s about working together with the producers and the artists, and supporting them as they throw their blood, sweat and tears into something, and having a little bit of compassion...This is a very convoluted way of saying, ‘Just tell us we’re amazing.’ Because often, we’ll just need to hear it.”
Marks, who also took home the top accolade of Producer Of The Year from the Music Producers Guild Awards 2024 for her work on The Record, learned her craft as an engineer on records by acts including PJ Harvey, Foals and The Killers.
She has gone on to collaborate with the likes of Alanis Morissette, Wolf Alice, The Big Moon, Frank Carter & The Rattlesnakes and The Amazons, while her relationship with Boygenius has extended beyond the studio - joining the band on stage at Gunnersbury Park last summer to recreate the scream she recorded on the track $20.
“That was the most terrifying experience of my life," Marks told Music Week. "I knew I had to say ‘yes’ when they asked me to do it because I was like, ‘This is an experience I can’t give up.’ But I’m pretty sure I was hyperventilating at the side of the stage before going on and then as soon as I walked out I think I blacked out.
"But then I just came to and I’m screaming and I see their three faces beaming back at me and I’m like, ‘Oh my God, this chorus is still going, I still have to carry on screaming.’ And then, once it was over, I realised no one cared and no one knew who I was. But it was fun for me to do. It’s good to put yourself in terrifying situations because once you’ve done it, it’s like, ‘Oh, I want to do that again.’”
Marks has spent much of her career advocating for better treatment and recognition of female producers.
"I do understand that the conversation is important and always will be, because it appears as if there are not that many women in the industry," she said. "And I understand that there are these percentage figures, but that [relates to] what is in the charts…
"I think there are a lot of people who are producing who might not necessarily be working on the kind of music that would chart. I know that I don’t all the time."
Marks namechecked Steph Marziano, Marta Salogni, Manon Grandjean, Jennifer Decilveo, Alex Hope and Laura Sisk as ones to watch in her field.
"There are a lot more of us than people seem to think," she added. "Also, what’s frustrating is politicising that, rather than celebrating the achievements of the women who are doing really well, to encourage the next generation. I wish there was more of that”.
Speaking with Vintage King earlier in the year, they asked this super-producer twenty questions. We get an insight into her favourite gear, studio routines and what she has coming up. In terms of her work, you can check out her official website and keep abreast on her Instagram page. This is one of the most important women in music. We do not often highlight the relevance and role of producers. Especially when it comes to women. This is a trailblazer and pioneer who is helping to break down walls and ensure that more women are seen in studios:
“You’ve worked on some incredible projects. Can you think of any familiar thread that runs between all of them?
That's a really good question. It's hard for me to say sonically whether there is. I mean, there's always a little part of me that makes its way into the records I’m a part of, but I think the common thread is the artists that I worked with and the chemistry that we have. That is always why I pick a project—because I would love to spend time with the artists, no matter what the genre is. I want to work with artists who inspire me.
That's more a philosophical thread, but I don't know—maybe there's a sonic thread. I like things that are a little bit rough around the edges and very human. So I'm always very conscious to maintain that element, to maintain the personality of the artist that I work with, and make sure that that comes through as a unique sonic identifier to whatever project that I'm working on.
Who's an artist you’d most like to work with next?
There are a few artists I’m really intrigued by: Ethel Cain, Kacey Musgraves, and Amyl and the Sniffers. I would also really love to work with Coldplay. I don't know why, but I’d love to make a live album with them. Kind of Parachutes again, if they wanted to go back and make that kind of record. I’d love that challenge. I mean, honestly, you know, people ask me that all the time and the only reason I'm answering it's because I saw the question before.
It’s rare I ever think, "Oh, I'd love to work with that artist." It's more, I meet the artists that approach me and again, it's whether they inspire me through that initial chemistry. I mean, I would've loved to have worked with Bowie. That would've been awesome, but in the 70s. There are a lot of my favorite records where I think, "God, I would've loved to have worked on that." And albums like Spirit of Eden by Talk Talk. Sometimes I think I wish I’d been a part of that record.
To be honest, I’m more often thinking of other producers I’d love to work with. I love that kind of collaboration.
Do you have a production philosophy, and does it differ from when you are mixing?
Production philosophy: I like to feel, so the way that I produce is very reactive. I never know what kind of journey we're going to go on, but I usually sort of have a plan. I've heard the demos, I’ve/we've done pre-production, and I've watched them play. Imagery will start to form. I guess it's sort of hard to explain. I like to see the mix, see the production, and see the music, if that makes sense. So perhaps I think about things in a three-dimensional way. I guess my approach to production is the same as mixing, in that I'm trying to get a sense of an emotion that also has a visual attached, which is also in three dimensions.
When I close my eyes, where am I? Where is the guitar placed? Can I reach out and touch it? That sort of thing. Where are the drums sitting? Are they sitting behind the speakers or right in front, to the left, or to the right? I'm building a three-dimensional thing. How can I make that read through something that has no dimension, essentially?
So, yeah, it’s a constant science experiment.
PHOTO CREDIT: Vintage King
Was there ever a point when you questioned if music was the right thing for you? And if so, how did you know to keep going?
That is a very good question. I think probably in the first three or four years, when I was assisting, and I was like, "Why have I not progressed?" I remember someone saying, “You've still got a long way to go.” So there was that point, which I think everyone goes through, when they're like, "How long do I have to put up with this shit?" and, "Will I progress?" I'm really grateful that I carried on.
I did have tunnel vision, and I knew where I wanted to get to, but when I got to that point, I was so grateful because I had the experience and understood how to deal with people, managers, and record labels. When I was under a lot of pressure, I was able to handle it. Whereas had I gone out on my own when I thought I was ready, I would never have been able to handle it. Reputation is such a massive thing in a relatively small industry of producers and engineers that, had I failed on the first hurdle, would I have recovered?
It wasn’t until I understood the studio dynamic that there was a point, probably around three years in, where I was just like, "Oh God, this is so hard and brutal;" the long hours, no social life, and the sacrifices. But deep down, I had this end goal in mind. I got some great advice from my peers and my mentors: "Just when you think that you're ready, you're not." The learning process was so important. I think, had I not persevered and accepted that, I wouldn't have been ready when I was in a position of responsibility.
As a producer, how do you approach pre-production? Or do you just dive in?
Pre-production is such an important aspect of making a record for me, because it's not only the part where you get to know the artists' personalities, but also the way that they play. It’s a springboard of ideas for how I'm going to record it. I've talked about it before, but what the album will look like, just being in a rehearsal room, not thinking about microphones or the sonics, but just feeling their energy. It really starts to spark ideas, and also it's a way for them to break down the song aspects, whether it's the groove, or the way that the guitars are being strummed, or the vocal metering and how that relates to the drum groove. I break all those things down and then build it up again with tiny little tweaks that make things a bit tighter and a bit stronger.
But it also means that they're learning the parts, so that when we actually get into the studio, while it's an extension of pre-production, it becomes more about performance rather than learning the parts on the go. I try to make the experience from pre-production to recording as seamless as possible. It's all rehearsal until it's not, basically. We're always trying, we're always experimenting, but if you have the basics and we've really honed in on those in pre-production, it means there's more room for exploration and experimentation while we're in the studio.
Do you have any upcoming projects that you’re excited about and can share with us?
I've just done this great record with an Australian band called Teen Jesus and the Jean Teasers. We spent five weeks in Australia making the record in a residential studio, working six-day weeks. I think this album's so exciting, I’m very excited about it”.
I am going to finish on that note. As I started by saying, Catherine Marks is someone for whom I hold a lot of respect, love and affection. Considering the amazing albums she has produced and how she is both championing women in the industry and also calling out the fact that, even now, studios are male dominated. The work of women still undervalued. Despite experiencing health issues and setbacks, I feel things are going to be pretty busy for Catherine Marks. I cannot wait to see what comes from her…
GOING forward.
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